Tuesday, June 06, 2006
Tolerance
Adapted from a comment I made on David's blog
Living out-of-town forces everyone to be a little more open minded and appreciative of anyone who is Shomer Shabbos. Last night I was sitting in a restaurant with someone from "in-town" who commented that it was nice to see a woman who was obviously not Jewish or at least not frum in a kosher restaurant, after all she was wearing pants and had short sleeves and a somewhat low cut shirt.
Then I told him she was frum, as once defined to me by a certain well-respected Rav (who would unfortunately, probably feel different 20 years later) Frum is shomer Shabbos and keeps kosher. Then he saw her husband with his small kippah srugah and realized his mistake.
The problem with large frum communities is that people do not interact. MO do not get to know RW and vice versa. So my kids go to school with kids whose mothers do not cover their hair and extreme rw frummies (not said negatively) and everything in between.
I have learned that some of the frumest most ehrlich people are from the former group. I can not count the number of women who cover their hair now but did not when I first met them. This can only happen in a place that is accepting of all. No one forced them they simply lived side-by-side with women who did and decided to change on their own, and if they would not have changed, that would also be ok.
I remember asking the Rav in our shul if I could eat in someoneÂs house because, based on appearance, these people were not as frum as me. Boy was I wrong, I wish I was as frum as them.
Sure there are houses where I am reluctant to let my kids go but that is part of it. I have, on many occasions, picked my kids up from friends because they will call to ask if they can watch a movie that is being shown and I say no. After a while you get to know the other parents. If they say Mrs. S. is showing this in her house I do not worry about the content because I trust Mrs. S. If it is Mrs. Y more often than not they are coming home. Then Mrs. Yid and I sit around and wonder what is wrong with some people.
But living in a smaller community you learn to tolerate and adjust. I am happy to be able raise my kids the way I was, that there can be a movie that is not treif (although not many anymore) and if they see it they will not get thrown out of school if anyone finds out. That is part of our job as parents, to monitor what is good and bad and what is right and wrong. It is easy to say no to everything. It is a lot harder to make decisions.
Maybe that is why so many kids go off the derech today, because parents were too restrictive and everything became treif. It is like Adam lying to Chava about touching the tree. I do not know the statistics but I would bet that as a percentage the number of MO who go off the derech is miniscule compared to the Chareidi world.
Are there benefits to only living with your own? of course, but in the long run those that do are raising a generation of intolerant people who will never be able to appreciate anyone who is not exactly like them because they will never get to know them. OUr children need to know that all people are worth respecting, all jews are worth knowing and frum Jews (of any persuasion) even more so.
Living out-of-town forces everyone to be a little more open minded and appreciative of anyone who is Shomer Shabbos. Last night I was sitting in a restaurant with someone from "in-town" who commented that it was nice to see a woman who was obviously not Jewish or at least not frum in a kosher restaurant, after all she was wearing pants and had short sleeves and a somewhat low cut shirt.
Then I told him she was frum, as once defined to me by a certain well-respected Rav (who would unfortunately, probably feel different 20 years later) Frum is shomer Shabbos and keeps kosher. Then he saw her husband with his small kippah srugah and realized his mistake.
The problem with large frum communities is that people do not interact. MO do not get to know RW and vice versa. So my kids go to school with kids whose mothers do not cover their hair and extreme rw frummies (not said negatively) and everything in between.
I have learned that some of the frumest most ehrlich people are from the former group. I can not count the number of women who cover their hair now but did not when I first met them. This can only happen in a place that is accepting of all. No one forced them they simply lived side-by-side with women who did and decided to change on their own, and if they would not have changed, that would also be ok.
I remember asking the Rav in our shul if I could eat in someoneÂs house because, based on appearance, these people were not as frum as me. Boy was I wrong, I wish I was as frum as them.
Sure there are houses where I am reluctant to let my kids go but that is part of it. I have, on many occasions, picked my kids up from friends because they will call to ask if they can watch a movie that is being shown and I say no. After a while you get to know the other parents. If they say Mrs. S. is showing this in her house I do not worry about the content because I trust Mrs. S. If it is Mrs. Y more often than not they are coming home. Then Mrs. Yid and I sit around and wonder what is wrong with some people.
But living in a smaller community you learn to tolerate and adjust. I am happy to be able raise my kids the way I was, that there can be a movie that is not treif (although not many anymore) and if they see it they will not get thrown out of school if anyone finds out. That is part of our job as parents, to monitor what is good and bad and what is right and wrong. It is easy to say no to everything. It is a lot harder to make decisions.
Maybe that is why so many kids go off the derech today, because parents were too restrictive and everything became treif. It is like Adam lying to Chava about touching the tree. I do not know the statistics but I would bet that as a percentage the number of MO who go off the derech is miniscule compared to the Chareidi world.
Are there benefits to only living with your own? of course, but in the long run those that do are raising a generation of intolerant people who will never be able to appreciate anyone who is not exactly like them because they will never get to know them. OUr children need to know that all people are worth respecting, all jews are worth knowing and frum Jews (of any persuasion) even more so.
# posted by southernyid @ 2:35 PM 
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You are correct. But here that is easy. Some eat Cholov Yisroel, some do not. SOme cover their hair, some do not. Some women wear pants, some do not. Some allow their children to watch PG13 and r movies, some do not. Some eat certain hashgochas, some do not. Then tell them what you do and what you do not.
most importnat BE CONSISTANT
most importnat BE CONSISTANT
and I find it harder with older kids. The little ones seem to be more understanding. I remember once being in a gas station and my 5 year old asking for a drink, I said it was not kosher and she said but soandso drinks it in school. (this was when she was in the LW school and the teachers did not care 9or know better) what was brought in, in the school they are in now it would not be allowed). I said, then her parents must know something that i do not and I will ask them but until i find out she can not have it. OK no problem. Since she was 5 she forgot about it. Had she remembered I would have told her quite simply my rav said not to use it they must have asked someone else.
The Eruv is a perfect example. Reasonable people can differ on the kashrus of an eruv but as long as there are Rabbonim who machsir it (there will always be Rabbonim who assur it)we need to teach our children that we do/do not use it because of our Rav and others who differ asked their Rav and one is no better or worse than the other.
Why do most people have less of a problem with this than with other things?
The Eruv is a perfect example. Reasonable people can differ on the kashrus of an eruv but as long as there are Rabbonim who machsir it (there will always be Rabbonim who assur it)we need to teach our children that we do/do not use it because of our Rav and others who differ asked their Rav and one is no better or worse than the other.
Why do most people have less of a problem with this than with other things?
with the older kids it is not that bad because they have been indoctrinated with it since todlerhood. It also helps that are right leaning middle-of-the road. This means that they still have friends who can do less than them. Although we have a TV and do not hide it it is locked in our bedroom and they are allowed to watch what we decide when we decide they can which is never during the school year except on Sunday and then the content is closely monitored. Lately I am having problems with commercials especially during sports. But even when they are watching something educational such as the migration patterns of Killer Whales, or something like that (which by the way can be quite fascinating) a commercial will pop up that is totally inappropriate. So we have been struggling with getting rid of it (again) but in all honesty I enjoy it too much.
I can honestly say that my kids have never seen a network show other than a game show but I enjoy watching jeopardy with hem and am often amazed at the things they know. If this makes me a bad parent than I am . On the other hand when I tell my teenagers that PG13 means goyim think it is appropriate for thirteen year olds, and ask them do you think that we should have the same standards? they are accepting because they know that we decide what is right and what is wrong. So I let them watch Harry Potter (although that is getting worse) and when I tell them that My Best Friend's Wedding is not for them I have some credibility.
In the real world there is very little that is either good or bad. It is good better and best or bad worse and horrible. And as they get older they need to be exposed to those things so that will learn how to make the right choices in their lives.
I can honestly say that my kids have never seen a network show other than a game show but I enjoy watching jeopardy with hem and am often amazed at the things they know. If this makes me a bad parent than I am . On the other hand when I tell my teenagers that PG13 means goyim think it is appropriate for thirteen year olds, and ask them do you think that we should have the same standards? they are accepting because they know that we decide what is right and what is wrong. So I let them watch Harry Potter (although that is getting worse) and when I tell them that My Best Friend's Wedding is not for them I have some credibility.
In the real world there is very little that is either good or bad. It is good better and best or bad worse and horrible. And as they get older they need to be exposed to those things so that will learn how to make the right choices in their lives.
No matter what, raising kids is tricky. You can only hope to do your best and let Hashem take it where it will go....
I dont have the statistics of in-town vs. out-of-town so who really knows which method is better... bottom line is, complete intolerance simply cannot be the solution.
I dont have the statistics of in-town vs. out-of-town so who really knows which method is better... bottom line is, complete intolerance simply cannot be the solution.
One learns from the least likely places - or rather from what 'WE DEEM' as the least likely places..
but are the most likely - if we just open our eyes in acceptance.
btw - welcome!
but are the most likely - if we just open our eyes in acceptance.
btw - welcome!
Hi Southern. Good luck with your blog.
Wanted to comment on your comment that Brooklyners (is that a term?) don't say good shabbos.
I was in Brooklyn a few weeks ago, walking somewhere friday night - and quite a few people of all stripes - including yeshiva guys, said good shabbos to me (and no, they weren't starting up).
Wanted to comment on your comment that Brooklyners (is that a term?) don't say good shabbos.
I was in Brooklyn a few weeks ago, walking somewhere friday night - and quite a few people of all stripes - including yeshiva guys, said good shabbos to me (and no, they weren't starting up).
As a Brooklynite all my life, I can tell you that there are people who say Good Shabbos, and people who don't. I do, but not to a man if I am alone, since I was taught not to initiate with a man. But if he does, I respond loud and clear.
There is a woman I know who lives around the corner from. Snotty spoiled rich socialite (but her kids are nicer, somehow, I don't know how!!). I say Good Shabbos to her. Oh, I KNOW she hears me. She remembers me. She looks at me. And looks away. Damn, I shoulda asked my Daddy to sell my car an buy me a Burberry skirt so I'll mean something to her. Puh-freakin-leez. So when I do say Good Shabbos to random people, and am met with no response, I utter, "Or not, whatever." and kinda secretly hope they heard me.
But anyway, about the whole MO thing. So, okay, they have a smaller percentage (proof??) but because they're already violating Halacha. I am no fan of the Bais Yaakov system. I think it's a failure. But the people who go to co-ed schools and lead to not being Shomer Negiah, and social kissing, and all that, is completely against the Torah!!
Yes, the woman in short sleeves is frum, but not TOO frum. Obviously she's not adhering to the laws of Tznius. Not saying I am MORE frum bec I am careful about covering up, there are more aspects to deal with, but there is something wrong with that--IF THE PERSON WAS TAUGHT BETTER.
There is a woman I know who lives around the corner from. Snotty spoiled rich socialite (but her kids are nicer, somehow, I don't know how!!). I say Good Shabbos to her. Oh, I KNOW she hears me. She remembers me. She looks at me. And looks away. Damn, I shoulda asked my Daddy to sell my car an buy me a Burberry skirt so I'll mean something to her. Puh-freakin-leez. So when I do say Good Shabbos to random people, and am met with no response, I utter, "Or not, whatever." and kinda secretly hope they heard me.
But anyway, about the whole MO thing. So, okay, they have a smaller percentage (proof??) but because they're already violating Halacha. I am no fan of the Bais Yaakov system. I think it's a failure. But the people who go to co-ed schools and lead to not being Shomer Negiah, and social kissing, and all that, is completely against the Torah!!
Yes, the woman in short sleeves is frum, but not TOO frum. Obviously she's not adhering to the laws of Tznius. Not saying I am MORE frum bec I am careful about covering up, there are more aspects to deal with, but there is something wrong with that--IF THE PERSON WAS TAUGHT BETTER.
limey, you could do what I do. I tell them that each family has their rules and their way off doing things and that, in our family and in our opinion, doing x is not acceptable. It applies the same way for regular actions (ie jumping on the couch) as it does to religious observance (ie chalav yisrael and etc). For example - My children have cousins that observe chalav yisrael and they know, despite being very young, to ask before offering their cousins any snacks so as to make sure they don't give them something they cannot have. It's this respect that eases my family members minds so that it is ok for their children to visit ddepsite the differences in our observance. As long as you teach them what you expect from them while still showing respect to others who believe differently, your children will grow to respect differences in observance and not judge them.
# posted by 
: 5:17 PM
: 5:17 PM
I was one of the frummest in my primary school, but with patience and understanding my parents explained how other peoples religous observance levels didn't mean that I could judge them. I grew up feeling very 'inclusive' rather than 'exclusive'.
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